Episode 3: Scott Payne

Episode 3: Scott Payne Featured Image

Join us in this week’s episode as we sit down with Scott Payne, Chief Product Officer at Shape CRM. Drawing from his extensive experience in lead management, Scott delves into the nuances of lead response systems, discussing the transformative impact of AI on CRM technology. Scott also shares compelling insights from his secret shopping and shadowing experiences, shedding light on the subtleties of customer engagement and response tactics. Tune in for an insightful discussion on the evolving landscape of tech, sales, and marketing, enriched with practical advice and industry-specific strategies.




Cross: Hello and welcome to 73 and Sunny, the podcast about the journey of getting things just right. We talk to tech sales and marketing leaders about how they’re growing, dialing in best practices and getting closer to that sweet spot. Sharing my hosting duties with me today is Paul Love, shaper of surfboards, rider of bikes, the head of business development at verse.

Thanks for hosting with me, Paul. 

Paul: Thanks for having me. Can’t wait to see how this goes. It’s my first one with 73 and sunny. 

Cross: Paul we have an amazing guest today. He’s a conversion wizard. He started at Velocify and then went on to found SDP solutions, which is. One of the best in class lead management consulting firms, and he’s most recently moved into a position as the chief product officer at shape CRM, but he may be more well known for his daily wig combos on social media.

Scott Payne, Scott, welcome on. Hey 

Scott: guys. How are you doing? So glad to be here on the show. I love the name. By the way, I was thinking about the name of the podcast and that is like my dream weather is 73 sunny sitting on the porch, Oh, it sounds so good right now. 

Cross: 72 and Sonny was taken, Scott, and we thought 73 is just even a little bit better.

I love it, just a little bit. Yep. And I’m disappointed that you’re not wearing a wig. 

Scott: No, I have it right close by. Oh 

Cross: my goodness, for everyone listening. It’s a quality mullet and so you must have, is there a monthly wig shipment, like a subscription that you can do? Yeah, I like it.

Scott: I’ve ordered so many on Amazon, I can’t imagine what the Amazon people think when they’re, they see that, oh, another wig going to this guy’s house, what’s going on? And then, the story with it, with is Dad’s Club. And so trying to make kids laugh, what we open doors every morning for our kids in middle school, by the way.

And they’re always a little cranky in the morning. We get the middle school age, a little cranky, they need a little extra, laugh or what have you. So I’m always surprised them with something new, whether it’s a new wig or dressing up as a T Rex or whatever it might be just to get a little bit of a little laugh before they walk into school that day.

Cross: That’s that’s… That’s really cool. And certainly middle school kids need dads around. So glad you’re doing that. That’s really cool. Yeah. Scott jumping into it. You’ve been in the lead management world for almost 20 years. Tell us how you got started and how you landed at shape today. 

Scott: Yeah so I started my first job out of college was a loan officer for a company at the time called syntax home equity, which became nation star mortgage, which became Mr.

Cooper. It was my first job out of college and I was, I had no real experience in sales. I’d had some experience in some marketing classes in college and what have you, and I was. In charge of our website for my fraternity and other groups that I was in was always doing something tech related and as I got the job into the sales role I had to learn because I didn’t have that sales background.

I had to learn how to be able to sell using technology and the system that we’d have at the time. The CRM lead management system wasn’t all it was good. It was great for distribution. Really was the big thing was known for from a user perspective. It was rough. And so I became a master of managing my leads with spreadsheets and with note, like printing out the leads itself and trying to put a tech spin on all of that.

And yeah, 20 years ago started my career in that way. And then fast forward to go through all the different roles. I was always trying to find ways to include technology to make myself or my team or my salespeople more efficient. And lead management was one of those things that. That always there was always something new to do to help advance that for people.

Cross: You do something, oh, go ahead, Paul. 

Paul: I’ll say no more spreadsheets, Scott. 

Scott: No I, not at all. No more spreadsheets ever. It’s all out. It’s a bad word. 

Cross: You do something, Scott, that we do, we’ve done, and it’s fun and painful. We were actually, Paul and I were talking about it before we came on here because it’s getting harder to do legitimate tests, but you do tests on companies to test lead responses.

So you put yourself in as an inquiry and you find out what they’re up to. So are you getting an automated text? Are you getting an automated email? And. We, we’ve been doing the same thing as a preparation for conversations we’re having with businesses before we get on calls. We want to know how deep is their problem?

How how are they responding to new inbound inquiries? But we know you’ve been doing it for years. What are some of the wildest experiences and stories that you’ve seen when you test companies for their lead response? 

Scott: So just to start out to you, like I started doing this as just an idea that I had because I couldn’t sleep one night.

So I was running all of lead management, lead distribution, lead analytics for Mr. Cooper, and we had just acquired a brand new portfolio from Bank of America. It was a massive portfolio. We went from a thousand leads a day to five to six thousand leads per day. Imagine that jump for a bit.

It was just, what, how are we going to handle this volume? And a lot of it was going to be emails. Communication, getting on a wait list, like all of this stuff. We had a really good problem to have at that point. But one night I said, you know what, I can’t sleep. I’m worried about what email is going to go out when I put a lead in the system or when someone puts a lead in the system tomorrow morning.

And so at two o’clock in the morning, I go online real quick and I submit a lead just to make sure the first email I got had the right content in it. And from that point, it took off. I was like I wonder if I leave it, leave the system with this fake name, what’s going to happen? And so I was able to track that going forward.

Fast forward, I left NationStar, went and started working for Velocify. And the first task I was given was essentially go save a university who used Velocify and put in their cancellation. Fly down to Austin, or drive down to Austin, I think I drove here in Dallas. Go down there and see if you can save them.

If you can, great. If not, no big deal. And so the first thing I did, logged in their system, looked around, I’m like, wow, they’re like way off best practices, way off what we normally would do from a setup perspective. And I said, you know what? It’s just not going to work with this guy coming down and saying, hey.

You’re messed up in the system. Go change all of this. I needed to prove it to them that there was going to be an issue with their way. And so I put a lead in their system. And I tracked every phone call, email, and text I got. And I was able to put it into a timeline format that showed them across the, from start to finish what their process really looked like versus what the process should look like.

It’s I always reference a scene from Days of Thunder the movie Days of Thunder, where the pit crew guy is saying, Hey. You want to drive this way. Let’s do a test. I’m going to see what your tires look like after so many laps. And then you drive my way. Let’s see how the tires look after that.

And they show the difference and vast difference in doing it the right way versus getting off course and what have you. And that story itself, the client ended up reversing the cancellation. They stuck. And then I took over as account manager for them. And 4 years later, they had grown 4 times the number of seats were, just a really good success.

Story one little crazy story I’ll throw in is that the 3rd time I did this for someone, I went on site and I was presenting it and the it was a female chief operating officer at the time, and I’m presenting to all the executives. And I just hear this like sniffling and I’m like, okay, I think of it and then it got worse.

And I looked over in the CEO, COO is crying and I’m like, Oh, this is not good. First time to meet him and she’s crying and she said, I’m so sorry for getting emotional about this, but she goes, I am so mad right now. She’s I don’t know if you’ve ever been this mad before where you start to cry.

You’re that mad. I am. Right now, because this campus that you did this to, they promised me they were going to take care of their leads and do stuff. And she said, that’s changing right now. And so literally picked up the phone, did this. And then before I knew it, I was secret shopping them every quarter for all of their different campuses and put the campuses, put all the admission reps on notice that, hey, anyone you get could be one of these leads and you better not make a mistake.

Her cry again, . So that was the, that was crazy. I’ve got other stories where the VPs of sales will call the actual loan officers into the room and have me present in front of the loan officers or the salespeople, whoever it is. And I’ve gotta now present and call them out in front of all of their superiors or what have you.

So for me, at the end of the day, and I think you guys would agree that like we are here, not just for our customers, we’re here for their customers. We want people to be able to achieve the dream of homeownership. We want them to be able to go back to college, whatever the service is they’re looking for, whatever industry we’re working in, we want the end customer to be the one who succeeds.

And so I just got over the fact and said, hey, I’m going to make some people not along the way, but at the end of the day, I’m doing this. For that single mom who’s a first time home buyer and they’re going to make sure that we call and nurture them the right way And when I took that mentality, it’s like I don’t care anymore.

I’m just going to present the finance do your job Do what’s expected if not, hey, by the way, if not, this is a great segue into verse If you’re not doing what you need to do, we’ve got to send it to someone who will. And it’s a great segue into verse stuff as well, by the way. So we can use that however you want.

Cross: But I remember David and Avi had David and Avi are the co founders of verse had a meeting they shared with us. It was a bold move in the meeting with the perspective giant client. They went on to on, on the screen share, they went on to the site and input an inquiry with His phone number and submitted it and said, let’s just see what happens.

And I think he had tested them previously. So he knew what was going to happen, but the, they had the senior leadership in the room and tested it in front of them. And he kept, at certain intermittent times throughout the meeting would hold up the phone and go, I still don’t have a call.

Nobody’s texted me yet. Nobody’s reaching out to me. So it’s one of those. It’s hard to call, it’s calling their baby ugly sometimes because you’re calling them out and saying, look at the holes in your system, but on the other hand, you’re exposing a weakness and it’s, you have to be sensitive, right?

I’m sure you’ve probably gone through this, but you have to be sensitive in the way that you display this information because we’ve had it go sideways too Paul, have you ever had someone, someone be pissed off that you put in a fake name into their system to test the lead inquiries? A 

Paul: little bit.

Surprisingly, not too bad. I always have a slight ethical dilemma within my own brain when I do it. But like you said it’s, there’s a higher cause. I could justify it. But no, I I’ve heard kind of whispers or hints that it wasn’t cool, but nobody ever came down on me real hard about it.

Scott: Yeah, my philosophy always was to start with showing to the person who you’re partnered with. And usually, we’re going to be partnered with someone within the organization that we’re trying to get our services to help the organization has to start with them, do it and show them the results and then ask for their permission to be able to share it with others is how I’ve gone about the past.

But like I said, there’s just times where the executive that I’m, I got permission to send it to, and then literally they’re on the phone. Susie, get down here right now. And all mad or whatever. Susie comes down, sits right in front of me and he’s tell him, show what Susie did. And I’m like, Oh gosh, this is good.

And by the way, on those examples, like I have them scheduled to go sit with the salespeople after that. And so I just walk around Oh gosh, people are, that’s the guy, that’s the guy, type of deal. But again, at the day, I defend it. 

Cross: Can you’re at shape now and. And shape CRM for anyone who doesn’t know is a CRM that works in all kinds of verticals and is, has made it some huge advances recently and has brought on Scott and some of his team members.

And it’s just one of, one of the best in class products. Scott, can you tell us what’s a specific thing about CRM or about management of a CRM that businesses are getting most strong? 

Scott: Most wrong, I would say, wow, there’s a lot, but, I think the follow through and making sure that there’s process in place to make sure that all opportunities are getting.

The same level of treatment, no matter who the record or the customer might be assigned to. And that’s, a lot of people will take that really is I’m not buying leads. It doesn’t really apply to me. But the same way, even if your salesperson is going out and getting referrals, let’s say from someone else, they’re putting your company name on the line, your company reputation on the line.

And so even though that is a referral, there are still things in place that companies don’t mandate or don’t track or don’t make sure that. That their reputation isn’t being, tarnished because of the act, the actions or inactions of certain people. And there’s lots of ways to do this in a lead management system.

End of the day though, I think we go about it a little bit differently in the fact that we wanna partner with each person and we wanna make sure that they see the value in, in, in the product itself. It’s not, a lot of times corporate comes in and just pushes stuff out, says you have to use it, sorry.

Versus I think our approach and our approach has always been from, whether it be SDP and now the shape. Is that we want to make the user adoption high. We want to show them why this is going to help their lives. And we’ve started to in our social media post to start talking about personal things, right?

Hey, like you can’t come home every day from work and sit in the driveway for 30 minutes talking to. A referral partner, because you weren’t prioritized the rest of your day, you have a system to really help you out. Your kid’s waiting at the door for you to walk in, and here you are in your car because you didn’t, weren’t able to really prioritize your day.

And so we’re using real life examples to show how we, and how the system can help them have a better personal life at home and put personal stuff first, because they know all the other stuff’s getting done. I think that, those who get it wrong, or those who just trust their people and that they’re going to do it the right way, and they’re not tracking with the secret shop opportunities, they’re not showing the value of the systems they have in place and then partnering with guys at first.

Again, I’m going to come back to you guys a lot because we haven’t talked about our relationship and all of that yet. But I mentioned this with David on my podcast when I had him on was when I first heard about verse, I’m like, oh, this might be a competitor of ours. ’cause we try to get people to use the prioritized view and get the salesperson to use it.

Why would you know we send it off diverse? ’cause then that takes away the value of a prioritized view. And what I learned was again, was who am I ultimately trying to help? Who am I trying to help in customers, right? End of the day, if the salesperson is gonna do it, you have to have a process in place, either from the day it comes in or give ’em an opportunity to be successful.

If they don’t, you have the backup to be able to send it. Over to someone like you guys to help make sure that, continued expectation for those borrowers are happening at 

Cross: every time. I don’t think there’s ever been a better or a more important time to have a CRM that’s organized in terms of what’s coming with AI and in the next few years, your ability to use the data that you own that’s organized in your CRM to make decisions.

And there’s going to be tools that are going to come out where you’re going to be able to ask. Can you prioritize everyone, or can you give me a list of the most highest, the highest likelihood deals that are likely going to close in the next three months based on past performance, based on lead source, based on how they’re interacting or consumer behavior, how they’re interacting with our website.

If the data isn’t clean today, you’re not going to be able to get to use all of those tools as they come out. It, we’re, we were relating it to a a garage full of boxes that aren’t labeled and trying to say, all right, we’ll put these boxes in order of value. And you go I don’t know what’s in them.

Like it’s all jumbled. How are you going to, how are you going to be able to organize when it your own first party data and all the data that you own with your customers. If you haven’t organized it within the CRM. So if there’s ever been a time, yeah. Every time when you’re going to, okay let’s get everything clean.

Paul and I, this the irony is that Paul and I are the worst Salesforce users in the. In the entire company, the irony is if things aren’t tagged appropriately, if things aren’t labeled appropriately, if there’s, if attribution is mixed up and jumbled and you go, Oh, we used to call it. Facebook leads in 2000 20, but we started calling, we started like calling them by UTMs in 2021.

And now you have two pieces of data that are mixed up. Yeah. There hasn’t been a better time to like, to get it all figured out. 

Scott: Agree. And, I would say even going forward some of the things that we’re working on with shape and, shape is an already robust tool, but they’re on the cutting edge and this is what attracted me and our business.

To be partnered with them as fast as possible was that they are on the cutting edge and thinking about things, not just today, but going forward. And 1 of those things that we continue to have discussions around internally is. How do we allow a salesperson to just sell? Don’t worry about even taking notes of your call, like just sell.

Just get on the phone and do a good job and sell and talk to your customers. How can we use AI to transcribe the call, to document next action items, to when it comes time for a follow up call, look at all of the kind of history of that, of conversations, of things that maybe they have typed in, or data points they’ve entered in, or updates from other systems.

And use that to simply not only just tell them who’s here, where you need to call, but also save them time for trying to figure out what to say when it’s time to call them. There’s a lot of time that gets wasted trying to look through the notes and who updated what, and what if we’re able to get an AI tool that just simply summarizes the entire situation for them, says, here’s what you got to talk about right now, and go do it.

And we’re close to be able to do that within the system itself. And that includes getting data back reverse conversations that you’ve had in your system that are feeding back to shapes that we can use that information to then take. Here’s three things to talk about, or they’re probably going to ask about this, whatever it is, allow salespeople to sell.

And then going forward, as you mentioned, you have all this jumbled mess, and it’s usually a jumbled mess because they’re all typing it into the notes. They’re not putting it into fields. They don’t go back and update things right away because they’re busy and they get another call. But what if literally you have a call transcribe and put in the notes?

All of that goes away for your go forward stuff, and it might make your life a little easier for the cleanup as well, where you could just literally go type in a note, just talk, I talked to this person a couple months ago, they were looking to do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, spit it out and let AI take it from there.

Like we are on that cutting edge of stuff when it comes to sales CRM. And making the 

Cross: salesperson almost too much, right? There’s too many things. There’s a lot. It’s it feels almost like a kid in a candy store a little bit in that there’s so many different ways and everyone’s talking about it. It’s the, we talked about the last conference I was at, if there was a drinking game.

Of how many times they say, if you want your drink, when they say AI, that like we would have all died in ethics there’s so much coming at you. But the ones that are going to win are going to be the ones who can put things into action, right? There’s all these possibilities of what’s going to happen.

But the challenge I think right now is how can you apply it directly to the business? And I think that’s an interesting. It’s an interesting segue is there anything within the CRM world that you’re seeing or in the shape world where AI is being used? Do you have tips and tricks or tips and thoughts on AI adoption?

Scott: I can tell you one thing that we’ve added to shape that has been super helpful to this point in time is that, most lead management CRM companies, if you need help with the system, you’ve got to go find help in videos. You’ve got to go submit a support ticket and wait to hear back. And we’ve already ahead of the curve a little bit in the fact that we’ve trained an AI bot with how many ever support cases we’ve ever received into shape and taught the bot how to respond to certain things.

So if I’m trying to, if I’m a, let’s say a sales manager or an administrator of a system, what have you, and I need to add a new campaign right now, I’ve got time to do it right this second. I don’t have time. to wait 48 hours for the company to get back to me on how I do this if I don’t know. I need real time access to understand that, and so you simply go to the bot, type in, how do I do this?

And it spits out and gives you instructions on how to do exactly that. You can ask further questions from that point, to elaborate on certain things, and what have you, I think just as a start, you talk about adoption. People are not going to adopt if they don’t know how to use it the right way and they don’t have real time access in their time frame to be able to really work on it.

So that’s just the start of it. And then, we get into, I would say there are tools that have been used for years, call it AI. So there’s ShapeIQ. ShapeIQ is a lead scoring that actually learns over time what you’re good at. I think a lot of stuff that I’ve used in the past.

It’s up to the user to determine what it is they’re good at, and some people can tell you some people couldn’t. They don’t even know what measures to go, but this a tool that we have in the system has started to do that already. So now you can use that. score for how your leads are prioritized, how they get distributed, who they get distributed to, what’s sent like I worked with the customer one time.

If the score is above this, send it to verse right away because we know they’re going to contact it immediately. If it’s lower than this, then maybe we don’t send it to verse yet. We let the salesperson take it and see what they do. And then always consider back from that point in time. So using that score or that, the AI model to figure out what’s, what someone’s going to be good at or not has been impactful to this point.

And then, I think I mentioned a lot of the sales stuff, but just the the ability to write communication specific to a scenario, meaning that if I leave good notes today if I don’t have a tool that’s listening and transcribing a call, and I’m just manually typing in the notes.

Taking those notes and asking a tool. By the way, we have this in shape as well. Like a chat. You could say, here’s my conversation. Paste it in and you can say, write me an email, a follow up email that for the follow up call, write that and then boom, it spits out and you copy and paste it and send it out in shape.

So like we’re already there, but if you look at a lot of other systems out there aren’t using that type of thing today, it then makes it even more time for it takes to send an email or use an automated email that everyone can tell is automated because there’s nothing personal in that as well. 

Paul: I’m curious.

I think, you’ve got obviously a long and storied background in mortgage and shape is a platform for customers of many industries. So how do you think about your ability to create a product that works equally well? And how do you get informed enough? In mortgage, I would assume, everything you could ever want to know about what the perfect scenario, the perfect CRM features and functionality would be for that type of an individual.

How do you how do you guys think about making sure that it works 

Scott: for anyone? It’s a great question. And, during my time at Velocify, I did get exposed to multiple verticals. I mentioned the university was the first one that I’d gone to spend time with there. And what I found, what I was, surprised about early on in my career of going to these other companies that weren’t mortgages, how close they really are.

You still have customers who need to be followed up with and called and all of that is really similar. It’s just a matter of the right, field and the right collecting the right information and what have you. I would say one thing that I’ve also done and I, it probably helps a little bit with maybe, the social media stuff that I do, speaking at conferences, but, and I think you guys have done this really well as well, is making connections, making.

Connections with people who know and leveraging them in some way. And so for insurance, we’ve identified a couple of people that we know are experts in the field. And we’re leveraging them to partner with us to help us build a template. And that’s the other part of shape is that we can create templates specific to certain things.

And when someone wants to come on and they’re the they do property and casualty insurance, we can give them the property and casualty insurance best practice template. And then they have that ready to go out of the box. And those were built by experts that are in the fields or what have you, for insurance is an example.

And I’ve myself tried to do a good job of keeping a good wide network. In nurturing those relationships, it’s really what I spend a lot of my time on today is nurturing relationships and, see you guys at conferences and those kinds of things that we do.

Yeah, so answer your question, but at the end of the day, too, it’s a constant, obviously evolving kind of process. We spend a lot of time and I have in my career spent a lot of time. Going and sitting with end users, at their desk or following them if they’re mobile and around town or what have you and mimicking and watching what they do and understanding.

Okay, they’re doing these things. How can we simplify that in the system? And we did this me and a guy, my team, Mike Pirana went to New York for a debt company that we’ve worked with for a number of years, and we spent an entire day doing nothing but shadowing. And we found so many things that we were able to eliminate in the system for them.

There was something, the process, they were clicking somewhere 8 times to get the process done. And we said, wait a second, we probably automate 6 of those things, get them to step 2, automate 3 through 7, and then. Eight or nine, they click a button and it’s done using an automation that way. And so in any industry it’s key that you stay on top of those 

Cross: things.

So you’re actually shadowing in person. You just you just go behind a salesperson and see what they’re clicking. Yeah. 

Scott: I have where’s it at? I have it somewhere remarkable too. If you guys ever seen the remarkable, but it’s a, like a notepad that’s like an S sketch with a pencil and I can write.

It’s like where I’m writing on paper and then what’s cool about that is I can transcribe all of that to text and then get it into our systems and all of the stuff from a notes perspective. But yeah, like literally we sit and most of the time we like to. Get a headset and actually listen to the phone calls as well.

So we hear what the borrower, the customer and the borrower says, and then we watch how that interacts there on the system. I did this when I was at Velocify as an account manager on every trip that I went on. I would make sure I at least had half a day spent with usually a top performer, a middle performer, and a bottom performer, or someone who just started.

And watching the differences between all of them. And it’s crazy how much stuff you learn and that they tell you, like stuff they tell you, you’re like. Wait a second. You’re literally cheating the system. You know that, right? And we don’t say that. I’m just like, okay, thanks. Thanks for sharing that.

Cool. All right. Why don’t you tell me that? But yeah, a lot to do 

Cross: with the end user. Sales is cutthroat and the meeting where they go, all right Scott’s going to be trailing three people today. John, the top performer Pete, you’re the middle performer and sorry, buddy. Sorry. Sorry, Sal. You’re the bottom performer.

He’s going to be following you around and finding out why you’re not doing a good job. So this part of the segment of the podcast, and we’ll use this to finish up Scott we call it if I were you and it’s to, to give advice to business leaders. So if you’re talking to a head of sales or someone, a business leader what would you advise them to do?

So if I were you, what’s the most important thing they’re not doing now? 

Scott: Actually the segue from the shadowing component of it. I think that every CMO. Or head of marketing or whoever in marketing, it could be even a marketing manager, whoever. Needs to spend time shadowing their salespeople and seeing and doing day in the life of and should follow them around.

So I’ve talked to a couple of CMOs, friends of mine. So I’ve recommended this to, and they’ll get on a plane and they fly to a couple of different offices and go shadow and really understand what’s going on, listen to phone calls with them on the phone, what have you. And so that’s one component of it.

What goes along with that, that I recommend all of my sales leaders that I work with. I always usually for each client we work with has. Head of sales and EVP of sales, someone who is like the head of sales. And what I challenged them to do is, Hey, why don’t you spend one day a month or one day a quarter and go get on the phone, spend the entire day and see how many applications you can take.

See how many, deals you can get in. What it does is it puts them not only in kind of the day in the life and seeing what they’re going through, but it sets this kind of benchmark for the, Hey. I did it. You can do it, right? You can hit this goal of each person who’s done. This has crushed it because they do it by the book.

They follow the priority view. They did the call through the list. They have the conversations are supposed to. They have the right follow ups etcetera, and they crush it. Set really high goals. And that becomes the new kind of goal for sales to hit. And when someone beats it, they make a huge deal about it, for that person or what have you, maybe put a bounty or a prize if you get above the person that’s done this.

And but I think what also comes from it is that the head of sales gets to hear. Firsthand, what some of the challenges are for their salespeople, so if they have a product issue or a pricing issue, or they have really a technology issue, maybe, whereas they’re like, hey this really stinks. I’ve got to go enter this into 10 different places, or I’ve got to go into all these different systems.

It’s really hard to do that. And so they get a lot of lessons, real life lessons in it. When I was, by the way, when I was going through management and training program and nation star back in the day from the loan officer to a manager. They put us in a underwriting role for 30 days and a processor role for 30 days.

I had to underwrite my own pipeline for 30 days and processing and what it taught me coming out of that to now become a sales manager was the importance of a clean file, the importance of taking a good application up front, the importance of asking all the right questions and documenting and leaving good notes so that I didn’t go train all of my people that right that way going forward.

And much like that, I think there’s an opportunity for sales leaders that are missing out on to do that last little note to I’m a huge proponent of video and and you guys see the videos that I do, I’ve just gotten to a point where I just posted, very little times do I record something now and not post it if I’m recording it, it’s getting on there regardless how stupid it might be or not.

And so in that same aspect, we see a lot of, I see a lot of leaders out there. Telling their people, they need to be recording videos, but they’re not recording themselves and Alec Hanson. If you guys know, I’ll cancel from CMO Lone Depot during covet. He started 100 videos. 100 days. He did just all of his content on video.

And that was what he talked about was that if I’m not doing it, and I’m asking my people to do it, it’s not going to work. And so Depot.

Through his efforts over the last couple of years. So 

Cross: Scott, that was great. thanks so much for joining us. Be sure to check out shape CRM and go follow Scott Payne on LinkedIn for top notch content on sales optimization and CRM usage. Thank you so much for joining us and Paul. Thanks for co hosting with me.

Thank you.